Can You Subpoena Casino Records
posted by anonymous to Sports, Hobbies, & Recreation (19 answers total)
You need evidence to win a lawsuit, and you can use a subpoena to get it. A subpoena is a legal command to turn over documents. To issue a subpoena, you must first have started a lawsuit. You can then fill out a subpoena form identifying the phone records you want. Valid subpoenas are enforceable by courts—a judge could hold you in contempt if you fail to comply. But you don’t have to automatically comply. The threshold question is whether you were properly served with a valid subpoena. Your state’s laws must be followed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by Happydaz at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2009
The folks above are right: they're not going to produce the records without a court order. Not because they're protecting the privacy of their patrons, but because they'd prefer you not know anything about their operations.
But I promise you they have those records. They have reports on everything. A casino is better instrumented than the space shuttle. Whether or not the reports are aggregated, though, is another story. The history of slots play, for instance, is probably tied up in their slots accounting system; the lunch is in their hospitality database. Likewise, if it's two years old, the logs have probably been rotated into tape archives in a vault somewhere. Even if they were willing to reveal the slightest detail, it'd require hours and hours of work to locate and retrieve the records. Unless the consequence of refusal is sanctions and fines, they're not going to help you.
Sorry.
posted by Netzapper at 10:18 PM on July 23, 2009
2. You won't get it.
Netzapper - you're partially incorrect. Casinos are one of the few industries left that actually respect a person's privacy. The amount of time and money that goes into software development and process development to ensure that privacy would surprise you. Granted, the more money you spend, the more privacy you can expect, but they will go to some significant lengths to protect privacy.
Also, those records are almost certainly aggregated and separated. And almost certainly still online. Two years old is nothing. Some properties have records, online, active, and instantly retrievable, for individual slot sessions 10+ years ago.
One of the reasons you won't get it is that no employee wants to lose their license over what would sound like to them to be a trivial matter.
posted by krisak at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by zachlipton at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by krisak at 10:40 PM on July 23, 2009
I wrote that software. And yes, privacy was important and protected constantly. Except, of course, when people decided to cut development time--'XOR encryption's good enough, dude.' The frequency of that happening would surprise you. The industry protects privacy just as long as it's making them money, and not a moment thereafter.
That said, I found that the casinos were utterly and completely uninterested in sharing even the most trivial detail of their operations with outsiders. Even when we were writing software for them.
However, it's news to me that they keep their play log records online that long. The play logs on our systems were archived as they filled up (couple gigs), although aggregate data (hand totals, game totals, daily totals, players' cash out and in, etc.) was peeled off separately for storage and analysis on their main systems.
But I have no idea if that data was then associated with a PCC in the main system and kept in aggregate. Because, as I said, they wouldn't tell us what they were doing.
posted by Netzapper at 11:26 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by P.o.B. at 12:32 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by splice at 4:15 AM on July 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by splice at 4:16 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by paulg at 6:43 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by Lame_username at 8:21 AM on July 24, 2009
As for privacy, yes, their desire to guard privacy is due wholly to economic concerns - they need customers to trust them, otherwise no one will be willing to play at their casino. If you're interested in the operations side of things, there are a few books that explain their accounting processes, their record keeping, and even their cage and credit operations in great detail. It's a lot less interesting than you might think..
Customer data is one of the most valuable commodities within the industry. The recent TI sale almost got cancelled due to a dispute not over price, or physical assets, or personnel, but specifically over the customer database and all of those historical records.
With that said, most casinos are somewhat loathe to part with that data wholesale. However, depending on which player tracking software they're using, and what their policies are, you can possibly get to the information you're looking for by impersonating the person you're trying to investigate. Keep in mind that that's illegal in every jurisdiction I know of, so don't do it. In general, it's going to take some strong legal backing to ge those records. Without knowing which casino you're dealing with, I can't give any more than generalities.
posted by krisak at 9:10 AM on July 24, 2009
It seems from the question like the person whose records these are is on board with getting them, so that authorization might help: the OP wrote:
You can assume the person will sign a release for me to get the records, but will not go to the casino in person.
So since the OP will be trying to get an individual's own records with the consent of that individual, the scenario is a bit different.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 AM on July 24, 2009
In that case it looks like you may simply be able to take the release to the casino's player's club in person and they may be more than willing to hand over the records. That's the easiest thing to do, before trying to get any legal help. Different casinos will have different policies, but with a signed release (especially if you can get it notarized), they may not have an issue at all.
posted by krisak at 9:40 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by Sheppagus at 12:12 PM on July 24, 2009
Subpoena For Business Records
posted by Mr. Justice at 8:37 PM on July 25, 2009
The Casino will probably still have the information on their database. As for releasing the information it would probably take a subpoena for a private third party to get it. In other words there's got to be something going on in court that pertains to the records requested. Law enforcement usually can get anything the casino has as far as records or video is concerned. If the first party wanted the records and had a reasonable reason either the owner or the General Manager would have to approve it. I'm just speaking from my experience in California other locations may be different. For the Casino the best policy is to hand over nothing voluntarily.
And another answer from someone who knows casinos as well:
Data regarding credit card purchases and player tracking information, including comps, may very well be kept that long, but maintenance time frames are likely subject to jurisdictional requirements and/or company internal control policies.
Whether the information is releasable is also an issue of jursidctional requirments; might be considered if the purpose for the request for disclosure is directly related to a legal matter; and whether the Freedom Of Information Act is applicable. However, generally, the information required for disclosure under FOIA may be redacted to the point of rendering it unsuable for the FOIL-er's purpose. Most businesses today refuse to divulge anything about their employees or customers and are relucatant to turn over any information to a non-law enforcement third perty, regardless of a signed release from the subject permitting disclosure.
They seem to pretty much agree with each other. The information may still be there, but you're not likely to get it unless the law is involved somehow.
posted by splice at 4:23 AM on July 27, 2009
posted by Lame_username at 9:39 AM on August 6, 2009
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The closest thing to discovery in most small claims court cases is the use of the subpoena. A subpoena is a legal document that directs a person to come to court and either bring evidence needed for the case or testify as to the facts of the case.
Subpoena Records For Trial
Subpoenas are used to produce witnesses at the trial. For example, if you want a police officer to testify about the accident you’re suing the defendant about, a subpoena is necessary to get her to come to court. In fact, any time you need a witness who is a governmental employee, such as a police officer, the proper procedure is to subpoena the person to ensure that she shows up.
Although you may subpoena some records from a governmental agency for trial and ask that someone come from the agency to testify about the contents of the records, don’t be surprised if that person has no information about your case and is only the custodian of the records.
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You may also want to subpoena someone who witnessed the event and is not a party in the lawsuit. If you need a witness and that person won’t appear voluntarily, a subpoena is needed to make her show up at the trial.
Subpoena Of Records Template
In civil litigation other than small claims court, your lawyer issues any subpoenas and makes sure they’re served. Because this is small claims court, you as either the plaintiff or the defendant needing the witness or documents ask the court to issue the subpoena.
Although the court issues the subpoena, you have to fill out the subpoena form and provide the information. The clerk or a judge may review the document before it’s served, depending on the practice in your small claims court. In many states, if you want someone from the government to appear, a judge has to sign, or so order, the subpoena. This may not be necessary for other subpoenas.
Sometimes you get before the judge and discover that you really need to subpoena some record to prove or defend your case. The judge, wanting to have the case decided on the merits and not on a party’s inexperience with the process, may tell you to go see the clerk and subpoena some particular record.
Listen to what the judge is saying to you — and write it down. Make sure you understand what you’re being asked to do. Judges don’t particularly like to have the clerk pop up 15 minutes later saying, “Judge, there’s a guy downstairs who says you told him to get a subpoena. Indian casino near cortez colorado. He has no idea what you said.”
In some states, the litigant who wants to subpoena records needed to prove her case or needs a witness to appear at the trial to testify is responsible for having the subpoena served. Check with the clerk as to the proper method to serve a subpoena in your small claims court. It may or may not be the same way the summons and complaints are served.
If you’re responsible for having the subpoena served, keep some notes on how you did it and if necessary you may have to fill out an affidavit of service. It’s never a good idea to serve something yourself because if there is a dispute as to what you did as a party you’re presumed to be biased.
If you don’t serve the subpoena properly, two things may happen:
You now have to ask for an adjournment to properly serve the subpoena, which, of course, delays your case.
The judge tells you it’s too bad; the trial is now and you have to go forward. Without the information you need to prove your case, you substantially reduce your chance of winning.
Say, for example, that after you move into your new house, a dispute arises as to some personal property the seller was supposed to leave and didn’t. You want the lawyer who represented you at the purchase to testify as to what was agreed to with the seller at the closing. Although your lawyer wants to testify, in many states, the ethical rules require that she be subpoenaed to testify.
If you need certain records, you also need a subpoena, especially if the records are from a governmental agency. For example, you keep having sewage backups in your basement from the municipal sewer line. You need to subpoena the local sewer department records to establish whether they have been maintaining the sewers and whether other customers have made complaints about the problem to them.
If you have to subpoena records, make sure you have the subpoena served far enough in advance so that the person has enough notice to show up and the person who keeps the records you want has time to get them. This is especially true of governmental agencies, which sometimes are a little bit slow in responding.
If you subpoena records there may be a charge for photocopying, or if you subpoena a witness there may be a fee fixed by the rules to compensate the person testifying, such as a mileage charge. You can avoid any surprise fees if you prepare your case in advance and discuss charges with the clerk or the help center if there is one.